affidavits Elvin Shaver witness accounts

Elvin Shaver’s Affidavit (2007)

CASE NO. 85-37049-FC
Plaintiff, Honorable Judge Donald A. Johnston vs. Harry Bout, Defendant,
} ss

I, ELVIN WILLIAM SHAVER, JR., being first duly sworn, deposes and says the following:

1. On or about April 5th, 1985, I was taken into custody by detectives of the
Grand Rapids Police Department, along with my then wife Carol Shaver
(hereinafter Carol) for questioning in connection with the disappearance
of Onunwa A. Iwuagwu (hereinafter Al). At the time I was about 1 year out of federal prison for counterfeit money, and on parole. During questioning the detectives told me they were certain Harry Bout (hereinafter Harry) had something to do with Al’s disappearance and heard Al had been killed. They threatened they would violate my parole and send me back to prison if I didn’t cooperate.

2. During the course of questioning I told the detectives Al was dead, and I
led them to where Al’s body had been buried. By doing this I incriminated myself as being an accessory after the fact of Al’s murder (a felony) violating my own parole on top of being a 4th felony habitual criminal offender (said charge carrying a sentence of life imprisonment).

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3. The detectives and prosecutor offered me a way out of having to spend the rest of my life in prison: I had to implicate Harry and Dawn Bean (hereinafter Dawn) to Al’s murder and say whatever the detectives and prosecutor wanted me to say. At first I tried telling the truth that Harry was not the killer, but they refused to accept this saying it was not likely a 16 year old girl (Dawn) was the killer, and threatened that if I didn’t cooperate I would go to prison for life. Their minds were made up that Harry had to be the killer.

4. The detectives and prosecutor told me what they believed probably happened and gave me some ideas about possible motives. They forced me to lie and commit perjury for them. I had to cooperate in this way or face life imprisonment as a habitual criminal offender. The prosecutor would not dismiss the supplemental felony charge for being a habitual criminal offender until I completed my testimony. Only then would I no longer be facing life imprisonment.

5. At one point during my testimony at Harry’s trial I felt so bad about what I was doing that I tried to tell the truth and expose the detective and prosecutor for forcing me to lie, but the detectives noticed something was wrong when I stopped my eye contact with them and stopped looking at their signals. The detectives immediately came to grab my arm and pull me off the witness stand as the judge spoke up asking if I needed a drink of water. Before I could say a word the detectives already had me out of the courtroom into the hallway. It was obvious that the judge was allowing the prosecutor and detectives to do whatever they wanted with
me, so I had little choice but to continue to lie and commit perjury for them.

6. Everything that Carol testified to at Harry’s trial was also a lie, to back up my lies. The prosecutor and detectives allowed Carol and I to discuss what our stories were going to be way back when we were first taken into custody for questioning. Carol knew nothing but what I told her to back up what I was saying.

7. I knew Harry didn’t kill Al. Harry didn’t even know how many times Al had been shot. Harry had to check the cylinder of the gun to see how many bullets had been used when I asked about this. Dawn also told me that she was alone in the bedroom with Al, and that she shot him 3 times when Al tried to leave.

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8. I admit that I lied and committed perjury, but I did so only because the detectives and prosecutor forced me to, with the threat of life imprisonment if I didn’t. My conscience bothered me so much afterwards that I even made an affidavit dated December 30th, 1986 (see attachment) to try and tell the truth, but the detectives and the prosecutor found out about this and drove all the way up to the prison in the Upper Peninsula (Kinross Correctional Facility, Kincheloe, Michigan) to again threaten me with life imprisonment if I testified at the evidentiary hearing.
The prosecutor and detective threatened that if I said anything at the evidentiary hearing other than “I plead the Fifth Amendment” that they would charge me with felony perjury and then use that felony to again charge me for being a 4th felony habitual criminal offender, and send me back to prison for the rest of my life. Because of that threat I refused to testify at the May 29th, 1987 evidentiary hearing other than to say “I plead the Fifth Amendment”.

9. The prosecutor and detectives had power over my life, my future or fate
in prison, and I had to do whatever they told me to do. They wanted me
to lie, and I so I did. They wanted to convict Harry for Al’s death, and so
I cooperated to give them what they wanted. I regret beyond what words
can say, what I have done. I cannot live with this on my conscience any
longer. I have lived with this for more than 22 years, while Harry has
suffered in prison for something he didn’t do. Harry didn’t kill Al. It was
Dawn who killed him because he tried to leave, and she should face the
consequences for what she did like anyone else.

10. If called as a witness I am competent and willing to testify to the contents
of this affidavit. I swear that the contents of this affidavit are true, factual
and correct.
Subscribed and sworn to before me this ____ day of _______ 2007, appeared
Elvin William Shaver, Jr. whose signature appears as affixed above.
Notary Public
My Commission Expires:_________________________________

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For the scan of the original document, see here.

We had Elvin filmed reading out his Affidavit in 2007. Elvin passed away a few years ago. We are grateful he took the time and effort to help with the truth and for the sake of justice to file and pronounce his Affidavit on behalf of Harry.

witness accounts

Affidavit of Cecil McKinney (2003)

Affidavit of Cecil McKinney

I, Cecil McKinney, being first duly sworn, deposed and state that I am a person of suitable age and discretion and if called upon to testify under oath in a court of law, would state the following: 1. That I personally know Dawn Renee Bean, born December 6 1967, having met her when I lived at 1548 Broadway, N.W. in Grand Rapids, Michigan.

2. That at all times that I have known Ms. Bean, I have known her to be racist, using racial slurs when talking of people of different ethnic background.

3. That at some time in either 1983 or early 1984, I had given Dawn Renee Bean a dark blue .32 caliber hand gun, which Ms. Bean regularly carried in her purse.

4. That I have lived at various addresses for the past 20 years and have been in and out of jail and prison and tried to stay in contact with Dawn Bean.

5. That during one of my releases, I met up with Dawn Renee Bean in the Grand Rapids area and she informed me that she had shot Onunwa Iwuagwu, also known as “Al”, who was originally from Africa.

6. That during this conversation, Dawn Renee Bean boasted and bragged about murdering Mr. Iwuagwu.

7. That I have read and reviewed this affidavit and affirm the contents herein, stating the same to being true, factual and correct to the best of my knowledge and belief.

Cecil McKinney
Subscribed and sworn to before me On this 26 day of June, 2003 Thomas Marsh, Notary Public Ionia County, Michigan My Commission Expires August 2, 2007

Scanned from copy of original:

Cecil McKinney Affidavit 26-6-2003 page 1
Cecil McKinney Affidavit 26-6-2003 page 1
Cecil McKinney Affidavit 26-6-2003 page 2
Cecil McKinney Affidavit 26-6-2003 page 2
Harry Bout's Case Details witness accounts

Factual outline from Harry’s Lawyer Lawrence

This comes from the old website (Injusticeline) of attorney James Sterling Lawrence:

A factual outline, explaining how the photographic evidence proves the police lied to frame an innocent person.

The autopsy of the deceased revealed that he had been shot 3 times in the head at point-blank range with a 32 calibre pistol. The coroner’s report indicated that the victim would have dropped dead instantly on the spot where he had been shot after entry of the first bullet.

The only eyewitness not involved in the crime (Evelyn Schneider) had been questioned by the police. Schneider told the police: she was in her bedroom (the bedroom immediately next to the bedroom where the killing took place) when she heard 3 gunshots and looked out of her room to see Harry Bout racing up the stairway carrying a long shotgun.

The police department forensic crime scene technicians thoroughly inspected the crime scene looking for evidence of a shotgun discharge having gone off in the house, AND FOUND NONE. The technicians also removed carpeting from the bedroom where the victim had been shot (Note: blood stains had been found on the carpet backing) to show that the victim had been shot in the bedroom, not on or anywhere near the stairway.

From the evidence the police and prosecutor knew that the gunshots Schneider had heard, came from a 32 calibre pistol, not a shotgun; and that Bout could not have committed the crime while on the stairway when the 3 fatal gunshots were heard.

The police also knew from Dawn Bean’s own admissions that she was in the bedroom with the victim. Bean had originally been charged with premeditated first degree murder until the prosecutor made a deal with her to put blame on Bout, which Bean gladly accepted.

At Bout’s trial the police had to lie and commit perjury to discredit Schneider’s testimony. The police testified it would have been impossible for Schneider to have seen Bout racing up the stairway, and submitted a false diagram of the house showing a wall extending into the way of Schneider’s view.

The police also lied that Schneider’s bedroom door opened inward instead of outward to make it look as though the door would also have blocked her view. The video and photos that can be seen on this website of Attorney James S. Lawrence factually prove that Schneider told the truth about what she could see and conclusively proves that the police lied under oath and even submitted a falsified diagram.

Anyone willing to compare the photographic evidence to the recorded and transcribed testimony of the police officers is invited to do so and see the proof that an innocent man is presently languishing in prison for a crime the police and prosecutor’s office know he could not have committed.

Photographic Evidence by attorney James Sterling Lawrence’s website:

Photo of Evelyn Schneider's bedroom where she looked out onto the hall and stairs
Photo of Evelyn Schneider’s bedroom where she looked out onto the hall and stairs: Could someone in that bed see you?
Photo from Evelyn Schneider's bedroom where you can see someone coming up the stairs
Can you see someone walking up the stairs?
diagram showing the layout of the house where witness saw Harry coming up the stairs after the shooting next to her
diagram showing the layout of the house where witness saw Harry coming up the stairs after the shooting next to her

Letter (2 pages) accompanying the photographic evidence from the Forensic Examination Service, dated 23 Nov. 2000:

Forensic Examination Service letter about photographic evidence 2000-11-23 p1
Forensic Examination Service letter about photographic evidence on 2000-11-23 p1
Forensic Examination Service letter about photographic evidence 2000-11-23 p2
Forensic Examination Service letter about photographic evidence 2000-11-23 p2 of 2

affidavits witness accounts

Sworn affidavit Elvin W. Shaver, Jr (1986)

Witness accounts
Sworn affidavit Elvin W. Shaver, Jr (1986)
Text version:
State of Michigan in the county of Kent
Case No. 85-37049-7C
People of the state of Michigan, Plaintiff vs. Harry Bout, Defendant.
Hon. R. Stuart Hoffius

Affidavit of Elvin W. Shaver Jr.

1. I, Elvin William Shaver Jr., do hereby make this sworn affidavit supp., that my previous statements and testimony in the case of “The People of the State of Michigan -vs- Harry Bout”, were not the truth, and that I made said false statements and testimony against my free will.

2. I would further like to state for the record that I was forced against my will to make false statements and testimony by means of “Blackmail”, “Duress”, “Threats”, and “Coercion”, used and induced bu the mentioned Defendants of the Grand Rapids Police Department and the Kent County Prosecuting Attorneys Office in Grand Rapids, Michigan.

3. I would like to clearly state for the record that a certain point in time during the course of the aforementioned trial concerning Harry Bout, that I tried to tell the truth and expose the corruption on the part of the mentioned Defendants while I was still on the witness stand, but that I was physically removed from the witness stand by the detectives and rushed out of the courtroom when it became apparent to them that I was not responding to their signals, and it appeared that I was going to tell on them concerning the lies and corruption.

4. I would like to clearly state that when the detectives removed me from the witness stand by force, that they took me out of the courtroom into the hallway, and there pushed me around, and threatend me with life imprisonment, and that they would make sure that I would loose my son and never see him again, if I did not continue to cooperate and lie for them and testify to the things that they instructed me.

5. I would like to point out that I was not allowed to enter my plea and be sentenced pursuant to my plea bargan, as an accessory after the fact of murder, untill I had testified at the trial against Harry Bout exactly as they had instructed me to.

6. That my plea bargan was held as a barganing chip to “Blackmail” me into making false statements and testifying untruthfully on the witness stand, in a combined effort to illegally obtain a conviction against Harry Bout.

7. I would like to clearly state that my statements prior to any court proceedings were not made freely, and were merely statements which I was told to make when the tape recorder was turned off or temporarily paused, and that I was lead by the detectives in answering the questions to refesh my memory in what my answeres were supposed to be.

8. I would like to clearly state for the record that my statements and testimony were the words that were put into my mouth by the detectives, and that I cooperated only because I was under threat of life imprisonment, and that I was “Blackmailed” with that threat continuously in an effort to keep me cooperating.

9. I would like to herewith officially for the record “Recant” my previous statements and testimony because they were not the truth.

10. Harry Bout never at any time, talked, planned, or even mentioned anything to me about murdering Mr. Iwuagwu, or trying to do away with him in any way, prior to the actual killing that took place the evening of March 7th, 1985.

11. Harry Bout also never talked or mentioned anything to me about being blackmailed by Mr. Iwuagwu, over counterfeiting plates, or over a counterfeiting opperation, in that this was nothing more than a fabracated theory thought up by the detectives to be used for a possible motive, only to leave an inference of guilt because Harry Bout did in fact have past dealings in counterfeiting.

12. Harry Bout also never talked, planned, or even mentioned anything to me about acquiring 49 apartment buildings from Mr. Iwuagwu, in that this was also nothing more than another fabracated theory thought up by the detevtives to be used for another possible motive, only to leave an inference of guilt because Harry Bout did in fact have realestate dealings with Mr. Iwuagwu in the past that the detectives had knowledge of.

13. Not one of these alleged motives could have been proven, and in fact, could not be proven, because they were not the truth, and were only fabracated to infer guilt and bias the jury because Harry Bout could not actually disprove the possible motives.

14. I would like to further retract my statements and testimony where it pertains to Harry Bout’s alleged admissions to me about his guilt in the actual killing, in that Harry Bout never at any time admitted to me that he was responsible for Mr. Iwuagwu’s death.

15. I would like to further state for the record that my previous statements and testimony concerning Dawn Renee Bean were also not the truth, especially not where it pertains to “her not being herself and being in shock” the night of the killing, in that she was far from being in shock, and didn’t even appear at all upset over Mr. Iwuagwu’s death other than she was very concerned in the immediate cover-up of what had happend.

16. My truthfull observations of Dawn Renee Bean on the evening of March 7th, 1985, were that she seemed to be very cheerfull and thankfull that I was assisting in the cover-up, and she appeared to carry on as if Mr. Iwuagwu’s death was some sort of game that didn’t seem to bother her in the least.

17. I would like to further mention concerning Dawn Renee Bean, that after the killing had already occured, that she did mention to me that it was she who took Mr. Iwuagwu to the upstairs bedroom with the promise of sex, and that she admitted to me that she had kissed him, and that it was gross, and that she was alone with Mr. Iwuagwu in that upstairs bedroom, and never at any time did she mention to me that Harry Bout was with them in that bedroom at the time of the actual shooting.

18. I would like to further state that Dawn Renee Bean has admitted to me on several occasions that she in fact was a prostitute, and that she prostituted in the area of Grand Rapids, Michigan, and Detroit, Michigan, and that she had been in the profession ever since the age of 14 years old.

19. I would like to further mention that Harry Bout had never owned or possessed a .32 caliber pistol for as long as I’ve known him, and that I never noticed any such weapon untill Dawn Renee Bean moved in to live with Harry Bout.

20. I would like to further mention that Dawn Renee Bean was never forced, in any way, or at any time, to participate in the cover-up of Mr. Iwuagwu’s death, and as a matter of fact it was she who appeared to be the one most concerned that no one would ever find out what had happend to Mr. Iwuagwu, and this is why she so eagerly volenteerd to drive Mr. Iwuagwu’s car to Indianapolis as part of the cover-up, when Harry Bout and myself refused to be any part of the car transportation.

21. I would like to further state that Dawn Renee Bean had every oppertunity in the world to call the police, or let any one know what had happend, had she wanted to, because Harry Bout was out and about the town each day from early morning hours till late in the evening hours taking care of the opperaton of his business, and apartment buildings, in addition to visitation with his children, marriage counseling, parenting skill classes and many other miscellaneous activities such as out of town trips or visiting his wife or friends.

22. I hereby acknowledge that I understand this affidavit will be used to start an action in the United States District Courts to obtain the protection that I need in the way of a Court Injunction so that I may freely expose the corruption within public offices of aforementioned Defendants, and that they be restrained from carrying out their threats.

23. I hereby acknowledge that I will be required to testify to the facts contained in this affidavit, but that said testimony will be contingent upon receiving protection from the United States District Court so that I may testify without fear of reprisals or retaliatory action by the Defendants.

24. I further understand that it is agreed that without said protection from the United States Districts Courts that I will not be required to jepordise or endanger myself by testifying and that under such circumstances this affidavit will not be used in this court for any other purpose.

WHEREFORE, in light of the foregoing, I Elvin William Shaver Jr., being of sound mind, do hereby affix my signature to this document in good faith, and of my own free will, and state that I am willing to testify, pursuant to requested protection.

Elvin W. Shaver Jr, 121217

Plaintiff, c/o Kinross Correctional Facility Kincheloe, MI 49788
Subscribed and sworn to before me this 30th day of December 1986.

Scan of copied original:

Elvin Shaver Affidavit 30-dec-1986 page 1-7
Elvin Shaver Affidavit 30-dec-1986 page 1-7
Elvin Shaver Affidavit 30-dec-1986 page 2-7
Elvin Shaver Affidavit 30-dec-1986 page 2-7
Elvin Shaver Affidavit 30-dec-1986 page 3-7
Elvin Shaver Affidavit 30-dec-1986 page 3-7
Elvin Shaver Affidavit 30-dec-1986 page 4-7
Elvin Shaver Affidavit 30-dec-1986 page 4-7
Elvin Shaver Affidavit 30-dec-1986 page 5-7
Elvin Shaver Affidavit 30-dec-1986 page 5-7
Elvin Shaver Affidavit 30-dec-1986 page 6-7
Elvin Shaver Affidavit 30-dec-1986 page 6-7
Elvin Shaver Affidavit 30-dec-1986 page 7-7
Elvin Shaver Affidavit 30-dec-1986 page 7-7
witness accounts

Witness Evelyn Schneider interviewed by police detectives (1985)

This is the text of the police interrogation / interview with Evelyn Schneider, a woman who rented a room at the house of Harry’s mother at the time of the killing of Al Iwuagwu:

Evelyn-Schneider-police-interrogated-april-5-1985 (PDF).

The date is April 5, 1985; the time is 11.02 a.m. The following is an interview with Evelyn Schieder, and present during this interview are myself, Det. Novakoski, and Det. VanderKooi. # 85-18001. Transcribed by Linda Noble.

Q. And Evelyn, we’re talking about some incidents that happened at your home over on Broadway, N.W. in the not too distant past. And you had mentioned before we started talking on the tape that there was a party at your home some time or other-last month was it? Can you tell me about that?

A. Well, let’s see, about a month ago I think.

Q. About a month ago. When would that have been? Who do you live on Broadway with?

A. This woman.

Q. And her name is ?

A. Maryann Scutt.

Q. Maryann Scutt, and was Maryann Scutt at home at the time?

A. No, she was at her daughter’s.

Q. Why was she at her daughter’s?

A. Her daughter was moving, and she was helping her move.

Q. Helped her move. So during that time, do you remember a date or anything? Do you remember what day of the week it was?

A. It could of been a Thursday, now I’m not sure about that, it could of been.

Q. Could of been a Thursday, there was a, what you describe as a party.

A. That’s right.

Q. Why did you call it a party?

A. A lot of noise all night long.

Q. What kind of noise?

A. Up and down steps.

Q. Okay, and where were you when this party…

A. In bed.

Q. You were in bed, and where’s your bedroom?

A. Right at the head of the stairs.

Q. Up at the top of the stairs?

A. Yes.

Q. The first bedroom as you reach the top of the stairs?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay, and you were in bed?

A. Yes.

Q. And what time would that have been that you heard these noises?

A. Oh, I don’t know, it happened all evening..

Q. All evening? What do you mean?

A. And all night long..I don’t..I don’t remember what time..

Q. What time do you normally go to bed, or what time could it have been?

A. Well, sometimes I go to bed early, I don’t know, I don’t have any idea. It was late. I mean it was all right, but I don’t know what time it started, I don’t have any idea.

Q. So you heard people going up and down the stairs. Did you see any of these people that were going up and down the stairs?

A. Ya.

Q. Whom did you see?

A. Dawn.

Q. You saw Dawn; do you know Dawn’s last name?

A. No

Q. Why was Dawn there? is that Harry’s girlfriend?

A. Umm. Humm.

Q. Yes? Okay.

A. Yes.

Q. Do you know Dawn’s last name?

A. No, I don’t, I never heard it.

Q. Dawn, okay Dawn was there, who else?

A. Harry.

Q. Harry, do you know Harry’s last name?

A. Bout.

Q. And how’s he related?

A. That’s Maryann’s son.

Q. Okay, anybody else?

A. Butch, but I don’t know his last name either.

Q. Butch was there?

A. Ya.

Q. How did you know Butch was there? Did you see him?

A. I saw him when I went down the bathroom.

Q. Is that Butch?

A. That’s Butch.

Q. Okay, I’ve shown her a picture of one of our police photos. IB#38268, and that’s Butch Shaffer, also known as Alvin Shaffer.

A. Yup.

Q. Alvin was there, or Butch; who else was there?

A. Harry Bout.

Q, Harry Bout and Dawn, anybody else?

A. I heard the next day somebody else was there but I didn’t..

Q. Did you see anybody else there?

A. No.

Q. Did you see a black guy there?

A. No.

Q. How did you hear the next day there was somebody else there?

A. I heard the next day that Butch’s wife was there, but I didn’t hear here.

Q. All right, did you hear any other noises besides people going up and down the stairs?

A. Do I have to say?

Q. Well, I’d appreciate it.

A. Ya.

Q. What?

A. A gun.

Q. You heard a gun?

A. Go off three times.

Q. Did you get up and look or anything?

A. No, no way!

Q. So, when did this gun sound like it was coming from?

A. It sounded like it was on the stairway, coming upstairs, and in the bedroom next door to me.

Q. Okay, do you remember what time that was?

A. No.

Q. But it was the same night that this party was going on. So you heard three gunshots. Were they close together or far apart? Do you know what I mean by that?

A. It seemed like it was pretty close, ya.

Q. Like within how many seconds would you say?

A. Now that I couldn’t say.

Q. I mean was it like bang, bang, bang?

A. No, there was one on the step..

Q. You heard a bang what sounded to be on the step..

A. Ya. Then I think they walked into the bedroom.

Q. The next door bedroom there right next to you?

A. There’s a room, it’s like a living room, well then there’s a bedroom, it was the bedroom, the bedroom right next to mine.

Q. Okay, and there’s a door between your bedroom and that bedroom next to you.

A. Umm.hmm.

Q. Okay, and it sounded like two shots in there?

A. Umm.hmm.

Q. How long after that first shot?

A. Not very long, I don’t know how many minutes or anything; it just sounded..

Q. What’s not very long?

A. No.

Q. What is not very long to you?

A. I don’t sounded like they came from the steps and went right in the bedroom.

Q. Okay, so it sounded like bang, people walking on the steps, going in the bedroom, and then bang, bang. how loud was this gun?

A. Pretty loud, I guess. I don’t know, well…

Q. Have you ever heard a gunshot before?

A.Ya, I’ll tell ya, well it isn’t really, well I guess it is, once in a while, a gun used to be shot off there.

Q. Who did that?

A. Just to be silly.

Q. Pardon?

A. Just to be silly like on the 4th of July and things like that.

Q. Oh, so people would shoot a gun?

A. Umm.hmm.

Q. Was there a gun kept in the house? What kind of gun was that?

A. I don’t know, I don’t know one gun..

Q. Did you ever see it?

A. It’s a, it was a big one, that’s all I know.

Q. A big one? Was it a, you know, like a handgun or a rifle or a shotgun, do you know what I am…was it a long gun?

A. Long gun.

Q. I mean like this long, like three feet or four feet?

A. I don’t know, I don’t know that much about length.

Q. It wasn’t wasn’t like this?

A. No, it was bigger than that.

Q. I mean was it something you would like hold up to your shoulders?

A. Ya, I would think so…like I say, I don’t know that much about…

Q. Okay, and this is sometime in the past you saw that gun? Do you know if any guns are kept in the house there?

A. I think so.

Q. You think so; do you know where the guns are kept?

A. Downstairs I think in the bedroom.

Q. There might be a gun downstairs in the bedroom?

A. There might be, I don’t know.

Q. Whose bedroom?

A. His mother’s.

Q. Have you ever seen a gun in his mother’s bedroom?

A. Not in there, no.

Q. All right, when you heard these shots, did you do anything at all?

A. I stayed right in bed, I didn’t do anything.

Q. Did you hear anybody talking?

A. Ya, I don’t know what they were saying, they were just making conversation.

Q. Who was making conversation? Did you recognize the voices?

A. Yes.

Q. Who was talking?

A. Dawn..

Q. Dawn..

A. And Butch.

Q. And Butch.

A. And Harry.

Q. And Harry. All three were upstairs in the bedroom?

A. They were going up and down the steps.

Q. Okay, could I ask you something ma’am, after you heard the shots, how long was it when you first heard Butch talking, do you remember?

A. …must have been quite a while, but I am not real sure.

Q. What’s quite a while?

A. I don’t know..he was..I..he was downstairs and he came up but I don’t have any idea how long..

Q. How do you know that?

A. I could see it from that win..that door was open to my bedroom.

Q. Okay, did you see another man there?

A. No,I didn’t know there was another man, and I didn’t know, I heard the next day that his wife was there. I didn’t know she was there.

Q. Okay, who did you hear that Butch’s wife was there, who told you that?

A. Harry.

Q. Harry told you.

A. I think it was Harry, ya.

Q. Harry told you and did you overhear Harry say it? Do you remember?

A. I don’t know now..

Q. All right, let’s get back. After you hear the shots, you think Butch is downstairs when the shooting’s going on, when the shots are fired?

A. I think so, but I don’t know.

Q. All right, after the shots are fired, can you give me an estimate of time that you saw..did you see Butch after that?

A. Ya.

Q. You stayed in your bedroom all this time, is that correct?

A. Oh yes, I never got out of bed.

Q. You never got out of bed, but your door was open?

A. Ya.

Q. Let’s start from the beginning.,

A. See when I first..

Q. Let’s start from the beginning, all right.

A. When this party started, I…

Q. What’s the first, okay, the party started and there’s noises going on downstairs.

A. I went down to go to the bathroom, and Butch and Harry were comin in the door. But then until they came, until he came, Butch came upstairs, I hadn’t seen him. then there wasn’t noise in the house.

Q. All right, so there was noise in the house..

A. There wasn’t.

Q. There wasn’t?

A. Not too much, I mean not like, well like you’d expect at a party, no.

Q. Okay, not like laughing or…

A. No.

Q. So the next thing, you’re in bed, you go down, you’re downstairs, you go to the bathroom, you see Harry and Butch, you go back to bed…

A… he said, Harry said Butch was gonna spend the night. I went back to bed..

Q. Okay, you went back to bed, and then how long are you in bed before you hear the shots?

A. I don’t know, I don’t have any idea.

Q. Was it more than an hour?

A. I don’t think it was that long, no.

Q. Not that long. Within an hour, half hour?

A. I really don’t know cause I was very upset, I wanted to go to sleep, and they were making all this noise, I was very upset.

Q. All right, so you’re in bed, and then you hear a shot on the stairs?

A. Yes.

Q. Who do you see when you look up?

A, On the stairs?

Q. Umm.hmm.

A. Harry

Q. You see Harry on the stairs; do you see anybody else on the stairs?

A. No

Q. Okay, then a short time later you hear two more shots? is that correct?

A. Ya, umm.hmm.

Q. Do you hear any noise like somebody falling on the floor or anything like that?

A. No.

Q. You don’t hear any of that?

A. Oh, another thing, there..I hear Harry’s girlfriend in that bedroom.

Q. Okay, you heard her after the shots?

A. Is all I heard was he said “are you alright Dawn”…Harry.

Q. Harry said that?

A. Ya.

Q. “Are you alright Dawn?” This was after the shots?

A. Umm.hmm.

Q. All right, what happened next?

A. There was just a lot of going up and down stairs all evening, the rest of the evening, I don’t know.

Q. All right, we think that somebody was shot next door in that other bedroom. Of course, you’re aware of that right?

A. Ya.

Q. Did you hear anybody trying to clean the floor, or did you hear anybody like carrying somebody down the steps, or anything along that line?

A. I heard a lot of noise, that’s all I heard.

Q. Like what kind of noise?

A. Well like they were moving something.

Q. You heard noises; well describe the noises to me.

A. Like something heavy. Well I’m seein all this from my bed.

Q. What do you see go by your door after the shots were fired?

A. They shut the door, I don’t know.

Q. They shut the door then; do you know who shut the door?

A. I think it was Harry, I’m not sure.

Q. Why do you think it was Harry?

A. I just think it was, by the voice that’s all.

Q. Okay, when’s the next time you get out of bed?

A. I got out when they left.

Q. What time was that?

A. It was about 25 to 4:00.

Q. Why do you remember that time?

A. I looked at my clock.

Q. Okay, what do you do when you get out of the bed?

A. I wanted to be sure everything, body was gone, I went downstairs and went to the bathroom and came back to bed.

Q. Did you notice anything unusual when you went downstairs?

A. There was a whiskey bottle on the table.

Q. Anything else?

A. I don’t think so, no.

Q. Anything unusual in the bathroom?

A. No.

Q. Living room?

A. I don’t believe so, no. I was very upset after all the..all what had gone all evening. I was very upset there so..I hadn’t gotten any sleep. I was very upset.

Q. Where was the whiskey bottle downstairs?

A. On the dining room table.

Q. Is that unusual?

A. Ya.

Q. Was there any glasses?

A. I don’t think so. I’m not real sure about that.

Q. All right, what do you do then? You go to the bathroom again?

A. Went back to bed.

Q. Went back to bed. How about the next day, anything unusual happen?

A. No.

Q. Did Harry come over?

A. Let’s see..I can’t remember..Maryann came home later on in the morning, or early afternoon.

Q. Did she stay long, or was she there to stay home then?

A. No, I think she went away again cause there was still some moving to be done.

Q. Did Harry come over?

A. I don’t remember.

Q. Did Dawn come over? You don’t remember?

A. No.

Q. When’s the next time you see Harry, Dawn and Butch?

A. I don’t remember.

Q. Was it..did you see them after that?

A. I can’t remember when I seen Butch..

Q. You stated that you heard the next day from Harry that Butch’s wife was there too.

A. Oh, that’s right, then he had to be there, ya.

Q. Did he tell you not to say anything?

A. No, I haven’t talked to him.

Q. The next day did he say not to say anything to the..

A. No, no.

Q. Are you afraid of anybody?

A. No. I don’t like this, that’s all.

Q. Well, we think, we can kind of see through you a little bit Evelyn, and we think you got some problems, you’re afraid of something and we wanna be

A. I am not afraid of..I’m afraid of this, yes, I’ve never been in a police station.

Q. Did you ever see..did you ever see the body?

A. No, I didn’t honestly. I never seen it.

Q. Did you hear about the body?

A. No.

Q. Did you know there was a body there?

A. No, not until last night till I saw what went on.

Q. Did anybody threaten you to..

A. No.

Q. Harry?

A. No.

Q. Are you sure?

A. Yes.

Q. Harry never said anything to you about what happened like don’t say anything to anybody?

A. No.

Q. Why did he tell you that Butch’s wife was there? How did that come up?

A. About the party.

Q. I beg you pardon?

A. About the party bein there.

Q. Well what did he say about the party? He talked to you about it?

A. He just said that she was there; that’s all I know.

Q. Well, you know that because you saw him when you went to the bathroom, the first time.

A. I didn’t see his wife, no.

Q. You saw Harry though?

A. Yes.

Q. Oh, I see. Did Harry come over there..who was Harry with the next day?

A. I don’t even remember, I don’t remember all this, I was in bed.

Q. No, not the next day you weren’t.

A. What?

Q. Was Butch there the next day?

A. I don’t think so.

Q. All right, let me ask you this, did you..are you home a lot?

A. Me? Ya.

Q. Did you leave the house, or did you leave the house for..I mean, you must go to the store or something..

A. Ya.

Q. Did you go to the store the next day, or did anybody ask you to leave the house? Do you remember Harry..

A. I went out of the house but that was my own free will.

Q. Did Harry ask you to leave at any time?

A. No.

Q. Tell you to go to a movie or go to the store? Did he take you anyplace?

A. No.

Q. Huh?

A. No.

Q. Well, you kind of..

A. I am very, this is getting to be very nerve wracking.

Q. All right, we’re almost finished now. Ma’am, I’m just a little concerned about maybe that you were threatened by Harry.

A. No, I wasn’t.

Q. Harry is locked up right now..

A. I know..

Q And it’s not likely he’s going to be walking around free..Harry’s locked up, Dawn is locked up, and Butch is locked up.

A. Nobody threatened me.

Q. Maybe not threatened, but might of told you to just forget about this.

A. No, no.

Q. Did anybody bring some cement to your house?

A. No, not that I know of.

Q. Well, you would know if you’re home most of the time.

A. Well, a lot of times I go out, but not that I know of. I didn’t, I don’t, like I said, I was in bed, I don’t know anything about all of this.

Q. Well, the next day..the next day..

A. No.

Q. Nothing? Did you ever talk about this problem, this noise and all this business with Marion?

A. Mary ann? Ya, I was almost hysterical when she came home. I have always been afraid of a gun, and before I worked at the Salvation Army I took, babysat some kids. And they had a gun in the house, and the grandmother always said you don’t have to worry, that thing’s never loaded. And I was always worried about. Well, three weeks after I quit babysitting, the man downstairs shot the one upstairs, so since then I am petrified of guns.

Q. What did you tell Mrs. Schutt about what happened that night?

A. I said that some shots went off.

Q. What’d she say?

A. And that there was a party or something going on there.

Q. What did she say?

A. To calm down.

Q. Did you ever talk about it again to her after that.

A. No.

Q. How about anybody else? Did you ever talk to Harry about it?

A. No.

Q. Dawn?

A. No.

Q. Butch, anybody else?

A. No, I don’t think so.

Q. I mean, if you’re that afraid of guns I would think you would tell more than one person about it.

A. My boyfriend.

Q. You told your boyfriend about it? What’s his name?

A. Oh, you’re not gonna get him in here too are you?

Q. Probably.

A. Oh,no!

Q. What’s his name?

A. Please don’t.

Q. What’s his name?

A. Stan G.

Q. Stan..

A. G.

Q. G ? How do you spell his last name?

A. G…

Q. G…?

A. He don’t know anything about it.

Q Where does Mr. G live?

A. Salvation Army.

Q. He stays there?

A. Yes.

Q. How old of a man is he?

A. About 41 or 42.

Q. White male?

A. What?

Q. White ?

A. Ya.

Q. What’d you tell him about it?

A. I think that Saturday when I saw him because I was very upset.

Q. So this is how many days later?

A. A couple I think, it was on Saturday.

Q. Okay, and you think the party was on a Thursday night?

A. I think.

Q. Just before that. Do you remember what the weather was like that night?

A. No.

Q. Don’t worry about it okay, everything will be all right.

A. Will I have to come back?

Q. Maybe.

A. Oh, no.

Q. I can understand Evelyn why you might have a hard time talking about this because I see that you’re kind of in a bind cause you’re living there and you’ve probably been dependant on your friends there. And now your friends have gotten in a lot of trouble or the son of your friend. I just wanna make sure that there were no threats made against you.

A. There wasn’t.

Q. He didn’t ..okay, did he ever tell you to just forget what you heard or saw?

A. No.

Q. How could he be assured that you wouldn’t talk?

A. I don’t know.

Q. It’s hard for me to believe that he’d just assume you wouldn’t say anything.

A. Oh, about the party, I told him about..I told his mother about the party, but that..

Q. What did..

A. I told him I was gonna tell her about the party, but that is all.

Q. When did you tell him that? Well, if she came over the next day then Harry must have been there that morning or something?

A. She came around noon.

Q. Okay, do you remember what day that was?

A. Friday I think, I don’t know.

Q. Friday, okay, so she comes home about noon, so Harry was there before that?

A. No.

Q. Early in the day?

A. No.

Q. Well see, I’m confused because if you said that Harry, you were gonna, you had to talk to Harry to tell his mother, correct?

A. What?

Q. About the party.

A. Oh.

Q. So you had to talk to Harry before you talked to Harry’s mother.

A. I don’t know, I’m very upset..Please don’t call me in here again, please.

Q. Well, I can’t guarantee that Evelyn, I’m sorry. I just feel that you did talk to Harry about this and that there’s more, a little more to it that you talked to Harry about the next morning.

A. I don’t..I don’t think he, I know he wasn’t over there the next morning.

Q. Well, you’ve already told me two different statements that Harry said to you, one about Butch’s wife and the other one about you were going to tell his mother..

A. But, I don’t remember when.

Q. When you said it to him? You told him, before you told Mrs. Schutt that you were gonna tell, right? So it had to be that morning.

A. I don’t know.

Q. We’re going to conclude this interview now; the time is 11.29 a.m.