witness accounts

Witness Evelyn Schneider interviewed by police detectives (1985)

This is the text of the police interrogation / interview with Evelyn Schneider, a woman who rented a room at the house of Harry’s mother at the time of the killing of Al Iwuagwu:

Evelyn-Schneider-police-interrogated-april-5-1985 (PDF).

The date is April 5, 1985; the time is 11.02 a.m. The following is an interview with Evelyn Schieder, and present during this interview are myself, Det. Novakoski, and Det. VanderKooi. # 85-18001. Transcribed by Linda Noble.

Q. And Evelyn, we’re talking about some incidents that happened at your home over on Broadway, N.W. in the not too distant past. And you had mentioned before we started talking on the tape that there was a party at your home some time or other-last month was it? Can you tell me about that?

A. Well, let’s see, about a month ago I think.

Q. About a month ago. When would that have been? Who do you live on Broadway with?

A. This woman.

Q. And her name is ?

A. Maryann Scutt.

Q. Maryann Scutt, and was Maryann Scutt at home at the time?

A. No, she was at her daughter’s.

Q. Why was she at her daughter’s?

A. Her daughter was moving, and she was helping her move.

Q. Helped her move. So during that time, do you remember a date or anything? Do you remember what day of the week it was?

A. It could of been a Thursday, now I’m not sure about that, it could of been.

Q. Could of been a Thursday, there was a, what you describe as a party.

A. That’s right.

Q. Why did you call it a party?

A. A lot of noise all night long.

Q. What kind of noise?

A. Up and down steps.

Q. Okay, and where were you when this party…

A. In bed.

Q. You were in bed, and where’s your bedroom?

A. Right at the head of the stairs.

Q. Up at the top of the stairs?

A. Yes.

Q. The first bedroom as you reach the top of the stairs?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay, and you were in bed?

A. Yes.

Q. And what time would that have been that you heard these noises?

A. Oh, I don’t know, it happened all evening..

Q. All evening? What do you mean?

A. And all night long..I don’t..I don’t remember what time..

Q. What time do you normally go to bed, or what time could it have been?

A. Well, sometimes I go to bed early, I don’t know, I don’t have any idea. It was late. I mean it was all right, but I don’t know what time it started, I don’t have any idea.

Q. So you heard people going up and down the stairs. Did you see any of these people that were going up and down the stairs?

A. Ya.

Q. Whom did you see?

A. Dawn.

Q. You saw Dawn; do you know Dawn’s last name?

A. No

Q. Why was Dawn there? is that Harry’s girlfriend?

A. Umm. Humm.

Q. Yes? Okay.

A. Yes.

Q. Do you know Dawn’s last name?

A. No, I don’t, I never heard it.

Q. Dawn, okay Dawn was there, who else?

A. Harry.

Q. Harry, do you know Harry’s last name?

A. Bout.

Q. And how’s he related?

A. That’s Maryann’s son.

Q. Okay, anybody else?

A. Butch, but I don’t know his last name either.

Q. Butch was there?

A. Ya.

Q. How did you know Butch was there? Did you see him?

A. I saw him when I went down the bathroom.

Q. Is that Butch?

A. That’s Butch.

Q. Okay, I’ve shown her a picture of one of our police photos. IB#38268, and that’s Butch Shaffer, also known as Alvin Shaffer.

A. Yup.

Q. Alvin was there, or Butch; who else was there?

A. Harry Bout.

Q, Harry Bout and Dawn, anybody else?

A. I heard the next day somebody else was there but I didn’t..

Q. Did you see anybody else there?

A. No.

Q. Did you see a black guy there?

A. No.

Q. How did you hear the next day there was somebody else there?

A. I heard the next day that Butch’s wife was there, but I didn’t hear here.

Q. All right, did you hear any other noises besides people going up and down the stairs?

A. Do I have to say?

Q. Well, I’d appreciate it.

A. Ya.

Q. What?

A. A gun.

Q. You heard a gun?

A. Go off three times.

Q. Did you get up and look or anything?

A. No, no way!

Q. So, when did this gun sound like it was coming from?

A. It sounded like it was on the stairway, coming upstairs, and in the bedroom next door to me.

Q. Okay, do you remember what time that was?

A. No.

Q. But it was the same night that this party was going on. So you heard three gunshots. Were they close together or far apart? Do you know what I mean by that?

A. It seemed like it was pretty close, ya.

Q. Like within how many seconds would you say?

A. Now that I couldn’t say.

Q. I mean was it like bang, bang, bang?

A. No, there was one on the step..

Q. You heard a bang what sounded to be on the step..

A. Ya. Then I think they walked into the bedroom.

Q. The next door bedroom there right next to you?

A. There’s a room, it’s like a living room, well then there’s a bedroom, it was the bedroom, the bedroom right next to mine.

Q. Okay, and there’s a door between your bedroom and that bedroom next to you.

A. Umm.hmm.

Q. Okay, and it sounded like two shots in there?

A. Umm.hmm.

Q. How long after that first shot?

A. Not very long, I don’t know how many minutes or anything; it just sounded..

Q. What’s not very long?

A. No.

Q. What is not very long to you?

A. I don’t sounded like they came from the steps and went right in the bedroom.

Q. Okay, so it sounded like bang, people walking on the steps, going in the bedroom, and then bang, bang. how loud was this gun?

A. Pretty loud, I guess. I don’t know, well…

Q. Have you ever heard a gunshot before?

A.Ya, I’ll tell ya, well it isn’t really, well I guess it is, once in a while, a gun used to be shot off there.

Q. Who did that?

A. Just to be silly.

Q. Pardon?

A. Just to be silly like on the 4th of July and things like that.

Q. Oh, so people would shoot a gun?

A. Umm.hmm.

Q. Was there a gun kept in the house? What kind of gun was that?

A. I don’t know, I don’t know one gun..

Q. Did you ever see it?

A. It’s a, it was a big one, that’s all I know.

Q. A big one? Was it a, you know, like a handgun or a rifle or a shotgun, do you know what I am…was it a long gun?

A. Long gun.

Q. I mean like this long, like three feet or four feet?

A. I don’t know, I don’t know that much about length.

Q. It wasn’t wasn’t like this?

A. No, it was bigger than that.

Q. I mean was it something you would like hold up to your shoulders?

A. Ya, I would think so…like I say, I don’t know that much about…

Q. Okay, and this is sometime in the past you saw that gun? Do you know if any guns are kept in the house there?

A. I think so.

Q. You think so; do you know where the guns are kept?

A. Downstairs I think in the bedroom.

Q. There might be a gun downstairs in the bedroom?

A. There might be, I don’t know.

Q. Whose bedroom?

A. His mother’s.

Q. Have you ever seen a gun in his mother’s bedroom?

A. Not in there, no.

Q. All right, when you heard these shots, did you do anything at all?

A. I stayed right in bed, I didn’t do anything.

Q. Did you hear anybody talking?

A. Ya, I don’t know what they were saying, they were just making conversation.

Q. Who was making conversation? Did you recognize the voices?

A. Yes.

Q. Who was talking?

A. Dawn..

Q. Dawn..

A. And Butch.

Q. And Butch.

A. And Harry.

Q. And Harry. All three were upstairs in the bedroom?

A. They were going up and down the steps.

Q. Okay, could I ask you something ma’am, after you heard the shots, how long was it when you first heard Butch talking, do you remember?

A. …must have been quite a while, but I am not real sure.

Q. What’s quite a while?

A. I don’t know..he was..I..he was downstairs and he came up but I don’t have any idea how long..

Q. How do you know that?

A. I could see it from that win..that door was open to my bedroom.

Q. Okay, did you see another man there?

A. No,I didn’t know there was another man, and I didn’t know, I heard the next day that his wife was there. I didn’t know she was there.

Q. Okay, who did you hear that Butch’s wife was there, who told you that?

A. Harry.

Q. Harry told you.

A. I think it was Harry, ya.

Q. Harry told you and did you overhear Harry say it? Do you remember?

A. I don’t know now..

Q. All right, let’s get back. After you hear the shots, you think Butch is downstairs when the shooting’s going on, when the shots are fired?

A. I think so, but I don’t know.

Q. All right, after the shots are fired, can you give me an estimate of time that you saw..did you see Butch after that?

A. Ya.

Q. You stayed in your bedroom all this time, is that correct?

A. Oh yes, I never got out of bed.

Q. You never got out of bed, but your door was open?

A. Ya.

Q. Let’s start from the beginning.,

A. See when I first..

Q. Let’s start from the beginning, all right.

A. When this party started, I…

Q. What’s the first, okay, the party started and there’s noises going on downstairs.

A. I went down to go to the bathroom, and Butch and Harry were comin in the door. But then until they came, until he came, Butch came upstairs, I hadn’t seen him. then there wasn’t noise in the house.

Q. All right, so there was noise in the house..

A. There wasn’t.

Q. There wasn’t?

A. Not too much, I mean not like, well like you’d expect at a party, no.

Q. Okay, not like laughing or…

A. No.

Q. So the next thing, you’re in bed, you go down, you’re downstairs, you go to the bathroom, you see Harry and Butch, you go back to bed…

A… he said, Harry said Butch was gonna spend the night. I went back to bed..

Q. Okay, you went back to bed, and then how long are you in bed before you hear the shots?

A. I don’t know, I don’t have any idea.

Q. Was it more than an hour?

A. I don’t think it was that long, no.

Q. Not that long. Within an hour, half hour?

A. I really don’t know cause I was very upset, I wanted to go to sleep, and they were making all this noise, I was very upset.

Q. All right, so you’re in bed, and then you hear a shot on the stairs?

A. Yes.

Q. Who do you see when you look up?

A, On the stairs?

Q. Umm.hmm.

A. Harry

Q. You see Harry on the stairs; do you see anybody else on the stairs?

A. No

Q. Okay, then a short time later you hear two more shots? is that correct?

A. Ya, umm.hmm.

Q. Do you hear any noise like somebody falling on the floor or anything like that?

A. No.

Q. You don’t hear any of that?

A. Oh, another thing, there..I hear Harry’s girlfriend in that bedroom.

Q. Okay, you heard her after the shots?

A. Is all I heard was he said “are you alright Dawn”…Harry.

Q. Harry said that?

A. Ya.

Q. “Are you alright Dawn?” This was after the shots?

A. Umm.hmm.

Q. All right, what happened next?

A. There was just a lot of going up and down stairs all evening, the rest of the evening, I don’t know.

Q. All right, we think that somebody was shot next door in that other bedroom. Of course, you’re aware of that right?

A. Ya.

Q. Did you hear anybody trying to clean the floor, or did you hear anybody like carrying somebody down the steps, or anything along that line?

A. I heard a lot of noise, that’s all I heard.

Q. Like what kind of noise?

A. Well like they were moving something.

Q. You heard noises; well describe the noises to me.

A. Like something heavy. Well I’m seein all this from my bed.

Q. What do you see go by your door after the shots were fired?

A. They shut the door, I don’t know.

Q. They shut the door then; do you know who shut the door?

A. I think it was Harry, I’m not sure.

Q. Why do you think it was Harry?

A. I just think it was, by the voice that’s all.

Q. Okay, when’s the next time you get out of bed?

A. I got out when they left.

Q. What time was that?

A. It was about 25 to 4:00.

Q. Why do you remember that time?

A. I looked at my clock.

Q. Okay, what do you do when you get out of the bed?

A. I wanted to be sure everything, body was gone, I went downstairs and went to the bathroom and came back to bed.

Q. Did you notice anything unusual when you went downstairs?

A. There was a whiskey bottle on the table.

Q. Anything else?

A. I don’t think so, no.

Q. Anything unusual in the bathroom?

A. No.

Q. Living room?

A. I don’t believe so, no. I was very upset after all the..all what had gone all evening. I was very upset there so..I hadn’t gotten any sleep. I was very upset.

Q. Where was the whiskey bottle downstairs?

A. On the dining room table.

Q. Is that unusual?

A. Ya.

Q. Was there any glasses?

A. I don’t think so. I’m not real sure about that.

Q. All right, what do you do then? You go to the bathroom again?

A. Went back to bed.

Q. Went back to bed. How about the next day, anything unusual happen?

A. No.

Q. Did Harry come over?

A. Let’s see..I can’t remember..Maryann came home later on in the morning, or early afternoon.

Q. Did she stay long, or was she there to stay home then?

A. No, I think she went away again cause there was still some moving to be done.

Q. Did Harry come over?

A. I don’t remember.

Q. Did Dawn come over? You don’t remember?

A. No.

Q. When’s the next time you see Harry, Dawn and Butch?

A. I don’t remember.

Q. Was it..did you see them after that?

A. I can’t remember when I seen Butch..

Q. You stated that you heard the next day from Harry that Butch’s wife was there too.

A. Oh, that’s right, then he had to be there, ya.

Q. Did he tell you not to say anything?

A. No, I haven’t talked to him.

Q. The next day did he say not to say anything to the..

A. No, no.

Q. Are you afraid of anybody?

A. No. I don’t like this, that’s all.

Q. Well, we think, we can kind of see through you a little bit Evelyn, and we think you got some problems, you’re afraid of something and we wanna be

A. I am not afraid of..I’m afraid of this, yes, I’ve never been in a police station.

Q. Did you ever see..did you ever see the body?

A. No, I didn’t honestly. I never seen it.

Q. Did you hear about the body?

A. No.

Q. Did you know there was a body there?

A. No, not until last night till I saw what went on.

Q. Did anybody threaten you to..

A. No.

Q. Harry?

A. No.

Q. Are you sure?

A. Yes.

Q. Harry never said anything to you about what happened like don’t say anything to anybody?

A. No.

Q. Why did he tell you that Butch’s wife was there? How did that come up?

A. About the party.

Q. I beg you pardon?

A. About the party bein there.

Q. Well what did he say about the party? He talked to you about it?

A. He just said that she was there; that’s all I know.

Q. Well, you know that because you saw him when you went to the bathroom, the first time.

A. I didn’t see his wife, no.

Q. You saw Harry though?

A. Yes.

Q. Oh, I see. Did Harry come over there..who was Harry with the next day?

A. I don’t even remember, I don’t remember all this, I was in bed.

Q. No, not the next day you weren’t.

A. What?

Q. Was Butch there the next day?

A. I don’t think so.

Q. All right, let me ask you this, did you..are you home a lot?

A. Me? Ya.

Q. Did you leave the house, or did you leave the house for..I mean, you must go to the store or something..

A. Ya.

Q. Did you go to the store the next day, or did anybody ask you to leave the house? Do you remember Harry..

A. I went out of the house but that was my own free will.

Q. Did Harry ask you to leave at any time?

A. No.

Q. Tell you to go to a movie or go to the store? Did he take you anyplace?

A. No.

Q. Huh?

A. No.

Q. Well, you kind of..

A. I am very, this is getting to be very nerve wracking.

Q. All right, we’re almost finished now. Ma’am, I’m just a little concerned about maybe that you were threatened by Harry.

A. No, I wasn’t.

Q. Harry is locked up right now..

A. I know..

Q And it’s not likely he’s going to be walking around free..Harry’s locked up, Dawn is locked up, and Butch is locked up.

A. Nobody threatened me.

Q. Maybe not threatened, but might of told you to just forget about this.

A. No, no.

Q. Did anybody bring some cement to your house?

A. No, not that I know of.

Q. Well, you would know if you’re home most of the time.

A. Well, a lot of times I go out, but not that I know of. I didn’t, I don’t, like I said, I was in bed, I don’t know anything about all of this.

Q. Well, the next day..the next day..

A. No.

Q. Nothing? Did you ever talk about this problem, this noise and all this business with Marion?

A. Mary ann? Ya, I was almost hysterical when she came home. I have always been afraid of a gun, and before I worked at the Salvation Army I took, babysat some kids. And they had a gun in the house, and the grandmother always said you don’t have to worry, that thing’s never loaded. And I was always worried about. Well, three weeks after I quit babysitting, the man downstairs shot the one upstairs, so since then I am petrified of guns.

Q. What did you tell Mrs. Schutt about what happened that night?

A. I said that some shots went off.

Q. What’d she say?

A. And that there was a party or something going on there.

Q. What did she say?

A. To calm down.

Q. Did you ever talk about it again to her after that.

A. No.

Q. How about anybody else? Did you ever talk to Harry about it?

A. No.

Q. Dawn?

A. No.

Q. Butch, anybody else?

A. No, I don’t think so.

Q. I mean, if you’re that afraid of guns I would think you would tell more than one person about it.

A. My boyfriend.

Q. You told your boyfriend about it? What’s his name?

A. Oh, you’re not gonna get him in here too are you?

Q. Probably.

A. Oh,no!

Q. What’s his name?

A. Please don’t.

Q. What’s his name?

A. Stan G.

Q. Stan..

A. G.

Q. G ? How do you spell his last name?

A. G…

Q. G…?

A. He don’t know anything about it.

Q Where does Mr. G live?

A. Salvation Army.

Q. He stays there?

A. Yes.

Q. How old of a man is he?

A. About 41 or 42.

Q. White male?

A. What?

Q. White ?

A. Ya.

Q. What’d you tell him about it?

A. I think that Saturday when I saw him because I was very upset.

Q. So this is how many days later?

A. A couple I think, it was on Saturday.

Q. Okay, and you think the party was on a Thursday night?

A. I think.

Q. Just before that. Do you remember what the weather was like that night?

A. No.

Q. Don’t worry about it okay, everything will be all right.

A. Will I have to come back?

Q. Maybe.

A. Oh, no.

Q. I can understand Evelyn why you might have a hard time talking about this because I see that you’re kind of in a bind cause you’re living there and you’ve probably been dependant on your friends there. And now your friends have gotten in a lot of trouble or the son of your friend. I just wanna make sure that there were no threats made against you.

A. There wasn’t.

Q. He didn’t ..okay, did he ever tell you to just forget what you heard or saw?

A. No.

Q. How could he be assured that you wouldn’t talk?

A. I don’t know.

Q. It’s hard for me to believe that he’d just assume you wouldn’t say anything.

A. Oh, about the party, I told him about..I told his mother about the party, but that..

Q. What did..

A. I told him I was gonna tell her about the party, but that is all.

Q. When did you tell him that? Well, if she came over the next day then Harry must have been there that morning or something?

A. She came around noon.

Q. Okay, do you remember what day that was?

A. Friday I think, I don’t know.

Q. Friday, okay, so she comes home about noon, so Harry was there before that?

A. No.

Q. Early in the day?

A. No.

Q. Well see, I’m confused because if you said that Harry, you were gonna, you had to talk to Harry to tell his mother, correct?

A. What?

Q. About the party.

A. Oh.

Q. So you had to talk to Harry before you talked to Harry’s mother.

A. I don’t know, I’m very upset..Please don’t call me in here again, please.

Q. Well, I can’t guarantee that Evelyn, I’m sorry. I just feel that you did talk to Harry about this and that there’s more, a little more to it that you talked to Harry about the next morning.

A. I don’t..I don’t think he, I know he wasn’t over there the next morning.

Q. Well, you’ve already told me two different statements that Harry said to you, one about Butch’s wife and the other one about you were going to tell his mother..

A. But, I don’t remember when.

Q. When you said it to him? You told him, before you told Mrs. Schutt that you were gonna tell, right? So it had to be that morning.

A. I don’t know.

Q. We’re going to conclude this interview now; the time is 11.29 a.m.